Hit behind the play?

borborygmi · October 10, 2009, 11:57:28 am

Is this a penalty?? I've seen this lately and last night the white hat was jawing with a kid right in front of us. Scenario-Team A punts from own 35ish. Punt is rolling untouched. Player from team B is blocking player from team A up high and in the front and white hat starts yelling at him but throws no flag. I couldn't hear what the kid said but the white hat said" I don't care what you say you cannot hit a kid 30 yds behind the play even if it is still live." My kid plays on team A and was not involved. I'm personally from the school of thought that if the play is live and you're out there stargazing or bleacher gazing or loafing behind the play you deserve to be plowed. Is there a rule addressing this I guess is a better question.

Earl is my Hero!! · October 10, 2009, 02:02:19 pm

Kind of reminds me of the bru-ha-ha back when Buddy Ryan coached the Eagles, and he put the "bounty" out on the Cowboys kicker.

The kicker got his clock cleaned after a kick-off or two...

Adjudicator · October 10, 2009, 02:09:24 pm

Quote from: borborygmi on October 10, 2009, 11:57:28 am
Is this a penalty?? I've seen this lately and last night the white hat was jawing with a kid right in front of us. Scenario-Team A punts from own 35ish. Punt is rolling untouched. Player from team B is blocking player from team A up high and in the front and white hat starts yelling at him but throws no flag. I couldn't hear what the kid said but the white hat said" I don't care what you say you cannot hit a kid 30 yds behind the play even if it is still live." My kid plays on team A and was not involved. I'm personally from the school of thought that if the play is live and you're out there stargazing or bleacher gazing or loafing behind the play you deserve to be plowed. Is there a rule addressing this I guess is a better question.

Rule 9-4-3b States that no player or non-player shall charge into or throw an opponent to the ground after he is OBVIOUSLY out of the play, or after the ball is clearly dead, either in or out of bounds.

I will strongly disagree with your asessment that players "deserved to be plowed" if they are star-gazing or bleacher-watching. This is called head-hunting is there is no place for this in high school football.

A point of emphasis (POE) for 2009 has to do withh illegal personal contact. Roughing or targeting players obviously out of the play. Page 81 in the NF Rule Book. Hope this is clear now. Sounds like the white hat was within the rules to say that to the players involved.

borborygmi · October 10, 2009, 03:12:22 pm

Thanks that's what I was looking for.

borborygmi · October 11, 2009, 01:20:26 pm

I still feel that if the ball is live the 22 on the field need to be alert, hustling, and looking to protect themselves. I can't stand spectating by players on the field. I guess I'm old school in this regard. The hardest I personally ever got hit was covering a punt and getting blindsided but I didn't get up looking for a flag nor do I think they should now. Just my opinion.

Adjudicator · October 11, 2009, 02:25:42 pm

I agree that all 22 should be attentive at all times during live ball. If there is a hard hit that's legal and around the play, that's ok. But it's those unnecessary hard hits away from the play that have no bearing on the play are the ones that should not happen. I have seen instances where not only ws a player flagged for a malicious hit but also ejected from the game. The National Federation and the NCAA have made it clear that they want these types of hits removed from the game. It starts with the coaches. They must teach their players that these types of hits have no place in football. Those are not football plays. If the coaches will not stop their players from doing this then the officials will have to. Not my opinion, but it is the opinion of the NF.

Rulesman · October 11, 2009, 03:40:13 pm

RE: Players that are "star-gazing' or "bleacher-watching" far away from the play...

It's called targeting defenseless players. It is a personal foul, it is a personal foul potentially subject to disqualification, and is a Point of Emphasis in 2009 under both Federation and NCAA rules.

borborygmi, would you feel the same way if it's your kid who gets his jock knocked off on a play like this, winds up in the hospital with a concussion, or worse, and has his career ended because of it?

borborygmi · October 11, 2009, 08:12:02 pm

That would be bad but this is so subjective. At what point is he out of the play? I just think kids ought to be taught not to quit and pay attention. Does it help if my kid gets hurt and the other kid gets flagged? No.

Rulesman · October 12, 2009, 11:36:54 am

Quote from: borborygmi on October 11, 2009, 08:12:02 pm
...this is so subjective.

Aren't all fouls in football subjective?

ricepig · October 12, 2009, 11:40:03 am

Quote from: Rulesman on October 12, 2009, 11:36:54 am
Quote from: borborygmi on October 11, 2009, 08:12:02 pm
...this is so subjective.
Aren't all fouls in football subjective?

I don't know, is counting to twelve subjective?

Adjudicator · October 12, 2009, 02:56:22 pm

Not really, but why do you ask?

borborygmi · October 12, 2009, 10:16:46 pm

To me holding, clipping, etc. are much more objective than determining if someone is out of the play and defenseless. I also don't understand other than a QB passing or a punter punting who else should be defenseless. I never heard this before this year. If you are blocking in the open field you can't hit from behind, or below the waist, or up around the head so if a kid is paying attention at all it should be hard to blindside him. And at what point are you A. out of the play and B. defenseless.

Rulesman · October 12, 2009, 10:30:35 pm

How much film do you want to watch to see the meaning of a defenseless player? I've seen enough recently to make a movie.

This is nothing new, but merely has become a point of emphasis, not only in Federation and the NCAA, but all the way up to the big show on Sundays.

borborygmi · October 13, 2009, 07:22:59 am

Rulesman here's what I don't get. On lets say a breakaway run from scrimmage- Every defensive player should be on a pursuit angle and pursuing in case of a cutback or reverse field and they sure shouldn't quit and become defenseless. If you block them legally I don't see a problem. On the original play I cited this was a punt and the kid blocking was blocking a defender coming down the field not viciously or a blindside just blocking.A. Most punt defenders are always away from the ball-do you have to wait til he nears the ball to block them? Same thing on kickoffs- Do they become defenseless when the ball carrier passes them?? No again they should take a pursuit angle and pursue. B. If they are pursuing like they should why can't you block them who knows if they are gonna get back in the play. Let's say player A is left def. end.- player B runs sweep right and breaks away player A should take a big deep angle and pursue- player B is going down sideline-when is player A defenseless?? I'm sorry but if we're having this much trouble understanding this rule the average high school kid doesn't get it either. We already have several rules regarding open field blocking. I personally have zero problem with a legal open field block.

johnharrison · October 13, 2009, 07:41:05 am

I'm thinking you need to see the film of some of the plays to which Rulesman refers given the examples you use. A punt? All 11 members of the kicking team are between the receiver and the goal line. Usually all would be considered in the play.

A has the ball on their twenty and a quick counter goes 80 yards for a TD. I'm thinking that as the runner crosses the 20 on the other end, you can be pretty sure the defensive lineman at mid-field is not in the play. There is no reason for a WR to come back and flatten him from the blindside.

borborygmi · October 13, 2009, 08:02:02 am

The original play I cited was a punt thus you are confirming my confusion. Player A was going downfield covering the punt and player B was blocking him in the front mid chest and the whitehat called out player B. Thus my confusion.

parpar · October 13, 2009, 08:08:25 am

I think a good rule of thumb is when a player gives up hot pursuit and is just jogging down the field. Even on punting situations, particularly in high school where not every player is "a special teamer" and goes all out to the ball, there are players that will never be involved in the play, particularly if the ball is rolling to a stop and three K players are surrounding it or the kick is over R's head and no R player is making an attempt to go get it. Also, on interception returns, the mentality of a defensive player is to go hit someone, even though he is 30 yards from the play and the returner is obviously going to be stopped or run out of bounds.

Rulesman · October 13, 2009, 09:44:14 am

Quote from: borborygmi on October 13, 2009, 08:02:02 am
The original play I cited was a punt thus you are confirming my confusion. Player A was going downfield covering the punt and player B was blocking him in the front mid chest and the whitehat called out player B. Thus my confusion.

The official in question on this play called me this morning. The players involved were 25-30 yards behind the spot where the punt was rolling on the ground and about to become dead. The receivers were not offering a return.

IMO, he used good preventive officiating by stopping needless contact. If you are confused and think this is "calling a player out", you have no feel for the game, how it is meant to be played, or how it is officiated.

borborygmi · October 13, 2009, 10:10:14 am

What I meant by "calling him out" was discussing this on the field with the kid. A poor choice of words on my part you are correct.

Rulesman · October 13, 2009, 10:18:39 am

The following are situations in which defenseless players are susceptible to serious injury. This was taken as a copy and paste directly from the NCAA rule book. Most knowledgeable people will agree the same principles apply to some degree in high school football.

• The quarterback moving down the line of scrimmage who has handed or pitched the ball to a teammate, and then makes no attempt to participate further in the play;
• The kicker who is in the act of kicking the ball, or who has not had a reasonable length of time to regain his balance after the kick;
• The passer who is in the act of throwing the ball, or who has not had a reasonable length of time to participate in the play again after releasing the ball;
• The pass receiver whose concentration is on the ball;
• The pass receiver who has clearly relaxed when the pass is no longer catchable;
• The kick receiver whose attention is on the downward flight of the ball;
• The kick receiver who has just touched the ball;
• The player who has relaxed once the ball has become dead; and
• The player who is obviously out of the play.

These players are protected by rules that have been in place for many years. It is of the utmost importance that participants, coaches and game officials carefully
and diligently observe safety rules. Intentional helmet-to-helmet contact is never legal, nor is any other blow directed toward an opponent's head. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified.

borborygmi · October 13, 2009, 10:35:22 am

I've seen this call made in each of the last 2 LSU games. Once for us and once against us. I also agree with the definitions you just cited. Bear with me cause I'm hardheaded- I don't see any new definitions here. Hitting a player after the ball is dead,etc. have as long as I can remember been personal fouls and they should be in my opinion. I still don't see anything there relating to trailing live plays. This was on my mind because they started using that defenseless player terminology in the LSU games. In the Fla. game the call was a late hit but I guess we're calling that a defenseless player now. In the game I was citing I wasn't knocking the white hat or his crew just looking for a clarification here on this rule. That was a strange game that could have spiraled and they did a decent job in my opinion. I guess I'm gonna have to accept this is a very subjective rule. Thanks for everybody's input.

Rulesman · October 13, 2009, 10:55:18 am

Quote from: borborygmi on October 13, 2009, 10:35:22 am...I'm hardheaded-... I still don't see anything there relating to trailing live plays....

We'll agree on the first two words.

SEE THE LAST BULLET POINT:"The player who is obviously out of the play."

How hard is that to understand?

borborygmi · October 13, 2009, 10:56:50 am

It's not just a gray area. I should be more patient and actually read all your post.

True Fan · October 17, 2009, 06:40:09 pm

How about the AR\FLA game? Before the Gators last td, the offensive lineman, behind the play, tried to take a shot at Shepherd. Shepherd saw him at the last moment and turned to meet him. PF on Shepherd. Total BS. The SEC needs to issue another apology.

HouseOf3Dogs · October 17, 2009, 11:28:51 pm

Quote from: Rulesman on October 13, 2009, 10:18:39 am
The following are situations in which defenseless players are susceptible to serious injury. This was taken as a copy and paste directly from the NCAA rule book. Most knowledgeable people will agree the same principles apply to some degree in high school football.

• The quarterback moving down the line of scrimmage who has handed or pitched the ball to a teammate, and then makes no attempt to participate further in the play;
• The kicker who is in the act of kicking the ball, or who has not had a reasonable length of time to regain his balance after the kick;
• The passer who is in the act of throwing the ball, or who has not had a reasonable length of time to participate in the play again after releasing the ball;
• The pass receiver whose concentration is on the ball;
• The pass receiver who has clearly relaxed when the pass is no longer catchable;
• The kick receiver whose attention is on the downward flight of the ball;
• The kick receiver who has just touched the ball;
• The player who has relaxed once the ball has become dead; and
• The player who is obviously out of the play.

These players are protected by rules that have been in place for many years. It is of the utmost importance that participants, coaches and game officials carefully
and diligently observe safety rules. Intentional helmet-to-helmet contact is never legal, nor is any other blow directed toward an opponent's head. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified.

I have seen players being hit after the ball is kicked into the end zone and the whistle blown to stop play and the kicking team runs down and flattens a return team player and NO FLAG and it happened right if front of an official and he just looks back and walks off.